[Mailing #59] Small update from the lawyer

Discussing the ongoing legal proceedings and all things relating to Bitcoin-24
user4164
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:14 pm

Re: [Mailing #59] Small update from the lawyer

Post by user4164 » Tue May 08, 2018 9:10 pm

Hi Jeff, this is exactly the point where we disagree and I've pointed this already several times over the years: Simon clearly did something wrong (and illegal from my perspective) and that's holding BTC funds without single word about it to the "customers". You can hardly say "technically he has done nothing wrong yet". And the view of people who have no BTCs in game (sorry, including you) might be biased so you keep forgetting this.

I buy so far your (and supposedly Simon's - but again no idea how you got this info from him) argument that Simon holds BTCs to be able to fund his lawyers. But I do understand people who see it differently like "fuck you Simon, legal troubles are yours business, you went into this with your funky BTC24 Ltd. and you surely have some BTCs on your own so with price climbing you should put your money on the desk not BTCs of your customers". And to be honest I'm very close to coming to the other side.

You say we could sue Simon if he doesn't pay. When do you (and layer which is advising you) think it is the right time? Where do you think this legal action should happen? I asked Mr. Liszka myself and the office replied two times that we should go to UK. I've thought you are UK citizen but even if not you are smart enough to understand that this is 50-100k GBP action (assuming Simon will resist as far as it goes). Moreover with dissolving BTC24 Ltd. the legal ground for such lawsuit is smaller and smaller. Who would you like to sue? Simon as German citizen in the UK? Even if he shows up (which wouldn't happen as you know) how easy it would to defend legally dissolved business which supposedly did something wrong more then 5 years ago on the internet with some Polish account and with some virtual currency?

btc24refund
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:58 pm

Re: [Mailing #59] Small update from the lawyer

Post by btc24refund » Tue May 08, 2018 9:36 pm

user4164 wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 9:10 pm
Hi Jeff, this is exactly the point where we disagree and I've pointed this already several times over the years: Simon clearly did something wrong (and illegal from my perspective) and that's holding BTC funds without single word abrout it to the "customers". You can hardly say "technically he has done nothing wrong yet". And the view of people who have no BTCs in game (sorry, including you) might be biased so you keep forgetting this.

I buy so far your (and supposedly Simon's - but again no idea how you got this info from him) argument that Simon holds BTCs to be able to fund his lawyers. But I do understand people who see it differently like "fuck you Simon, legal troubles are yours business, you went into this with your funky BTC24 Ltd. and you surely have some BTCs on your own so with price climbing you should put your money on the desk not BTCs of your customers". And to be honest I'm very close to coming to the other side.
As I've probably told before, I see a correlation between the BTC's, Fiat and the confiscation. I believe that when the confiscation is lifted both will be returned. That is also exactly why I am "fighting" for Fiat *and* BTC owners regardless whether there are BTC's owed to me. But I get your point as well when focusing on the BTC aspect only.
user4164 wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 9:10 pm
You say we could sue Simon if he doesn't pay. When do you (and layer which is advising you) think it is the right time? Where do you think this legal action should happen? I asked Mr. Liszka myself and the office replied two times that we should go to UK. I've thought you are UK citizen but even if not you are smart enough to understand that this is 50-100k GBP action (assuming Simon will resist as far as it goes). Moreover with dissolving BTC24 Ltd. the legal ground for such lawsuit is smaller and smaller. Who would you like to sue? Simon as German citizen in the UK? Even if he shows up (which wouldn't happen as you know) how easy it would to defend legally dissolved business which supposedly did something wrong more then 5 years ago on the internet with some Polish account and with some virtual currency?
My understanding is that there is a way to sue him personally. There is quite some proof out there that he personally is involved. In a normal situation an LLC is responsible but under special circumstances such as gross negligence or actual theft, responsibility is moved to the person. If you have different views about this, do share.

user4164
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:14 pm

Re: [Mailing #59] Small update from the lawyer

Post by user4164 » Tue May 08, 2018 9:42 pm

Yes, that's what my lawyer said: if the company had funds and they disappeared then there is a way to file criminal case and police with prosecutor should investigate the owners. But if this happened 5 years ago then you are overdue from limitation period (at least in countries like mine, not sure about UK). And also if company was dissolved (and it's LTD. not sure if its the same as LLC) and no "victim" objected that it holds some assets of his then again legal ground is basically zero. That's what I got from my lawyer at the first glance. Indeed it's not legal advice or some ultimate analysis. I'm really looking for some more details in this direction so if you or anyone else could contribute it would be highly appreciated. Thx

bernard75
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: [Mailing #59] Small update from the lawyer

Post by bernard75 » Wed May 09, 2018 6:42 am

btc24refund wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 8:45 pm
bernard75 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 5:57 pm
Will the sheep get an update, or you settled with the fucking Lankwitzer.
Stop lying, i know where his parents live, where he used to live and where he is after Thailand.
I am also a Polak, that knows more then your "lawyer", through my lawyer, and i hope you stop shitting people.

BTW: Him selling the database, is the worst thing. Scheiss (kannste selber einfügen) BWLER.
Ah, back again after what was it.. 2.. 3 years?
Last time you mentioned you/your lawyer had some information and I called you out to share your information. The legal documents in particular.
This could've helped us further but alas the troll was very silent indeed. Instead you'd rather spread FUD.
Still the case right?

Don't think I forgot... ;)
Oh please share, where i didnt try to help even exceeding your "requests".

btc24refund
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:58 pm

Re: [Mailing #59] Small update from the lawyer

Post by btc24refund » Wed May 09, 2018 6:20 pm

user4164 wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 9:42 pm
Yes, that's what my lawyer said: if the company had funds and they disappeared then there is a way to file criminal case and police with prosecutor should investigate the owners. But if this happened 5 years ago then you are overdue from limitation period (at least in countries like mine, not sure about UK). And also if company was dissolved (and it's LTD. not sure if its the same as LLC) and no "victim" objected that it holds some assets of his then again legal ground is basically zero. That's what I got from my lawyer at the first glance. Indeed it's not legal advice or some ultimate analysis. I'm really looking for some more details in this direction so if you or anyone else could contribute it would be highly appreciated. Thx
Could you drop me an e-mail?
bernard75 wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 6:42 am
Oh please share, where i didnt try to help even exceeding your "requests".
Glad you asked:
btc24refund wrote:
bernard75 wrote:I reported to your master this by PM in August:
I spent more than 500€ until now, but my lawyer is working the case for over 1 year.
There are lawyer portals in Poland where you present your case, get an analysis and a quote for free.
If you write a text i would be more than happy to translate it and you can post it there.
From the answers you can choose the proper lawyer from the region.
btc24refund wrote: Given the fact that you haven't shared any official documents of the case rings an alarm bell. It's been asked twice by me on the old forum. You simply ignored it. ...... Then all of a sudden you offer yourself to find a lawyer. It's a bit suspicious don't you think? To maintain, without a shadow of a doubt, the produced results of the lawyer would be legitimate, I'd have to look for one myself. Who knows what lawyer you would return with? I can now say that the official produced results are 100% legitimate.

Add your marvelous behavior as a human being on top of that, really trying to stir up some FUD with no reason. Add it all together and you might just be an accomplice of Simon trying to sabotage these efforts.

But tell you what; you can redeem yourself. If you can finally move yourself to share the official documents your lawyer has produced, including invoices; you'd finally be contributing something useful rather than stating the obvious. That is, if you really have found a lawyer who could inspect the case files and such.

Proof-time Bernard, either put up or shut up. ;)
bernard75 wrote:Shut up it is then.
No point talking to somebody with a reading disability additional to twisting the facts.
btc24refund wrote:
Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:25 am
Good try, but let's stick to the point!

I'm not asking you to talk to me, I'm asking you to share your information. In particular your official documentation so it can be verified. Apparently you still deny this request.

And really, I could care less for your baseless accusations and nitpicking on me as a person.
What I do care about is getting back what belongs to us. This should include you as well. All the more reason to share your information, don't you think? Even if it is redundant, it's good to have the same information from different sources.

Please prove me wrong, Bernard. That is, if you can.
Because frankly, until proven different, you're still just full of hot air.
http://forum.bitcoin24-victims.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=449&p=648&#p642

bernard75
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: [Mailing #59] Small update from the lawyer

Post by bernard75 » Wed May 09, 2018 7:18 pm

Thats what you were according to my analysts.
And what you did, since he is not a felon, is at the best negligent.
Please tall me that you have met him irl.
I on the other hand did contact with him several times, that is until he "disappeared" with "our money".
So please stop adding you BTC address at anything, that is publicly available.

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