[Mailing #39] Two options to proceed

Discussing the ongoing legal proceedings and all things relating to Bitcoin-24
btc24refund
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:58 pm

[Mailing #39] Two options to proceed

Post by btc24refund »

Dear BTC24-victims,

Finally being able to have read the Q&A from the laywer, it can basically be defined into the following:

The lawyer is advising to claim compensation in the criminal proceedings. As far as I understand from the lawyer, registering yourself as a victim of a crime will put you "higher" on the list should the case go to court. The secondary option, to start a civil procedure would put us behind the current criminal proceedings.

In theory, should there be a criminal proceeding and Simon were to be found guilty, there is no telling what sum will remain after a potential conviction. Thus by following the criminal claim we put ourselves on the same level as the prosecutor and I'm assuming when a verdict is announced, our case will also weigh in. But this is ONLY in the case where the proceedings will actually go to court. If the case will not go to court, we'd have to start a civil procedure immediately and claim the released funds. If will try to verify if I got the above correctly, with our lawyer.

Registering us as a group seems important to me. It's all a slim shot we have and there are a lot of "if"'s involved but right now there is no mention of us whatsoever. As far as Poland is concerned, we don't even exist. The lawyer has offered to represent us but the cost involved in total will be around EUR4.000,-

There has been mentioning of using the donated funds to pay all of it or allow users with fewer losses at stake to join as well. I am against this. In the first place, using the donated funds put us in a vulnerable position. Should there be any unexpected costs in the future and we might need to act quickly, then we are unable to do so. Such a scenario might be when a civil procedure needs to be started and an upfront payment is required to be payed.

Next to this, joining in on the legal action is obligatory and everyone has to decide for themselves if joining is an option. On the other hand, not joining does not exclude you. I understand there are a few users who's stake barely outweighs the required sum to join in. For those users I would say the best bet is to keep an eye on the forum and the mailings. I imagine that once a result has been booked these victims can join as well and perhaps at a reduced fee. I will verify this with the lawyer as well.

Finally, the donated funds consists for a part compensation for the many hours I've put in and a part reserve for when shit hits the fan, as I mentioned in the above scenario. I'd like to use it as sparingly as possible and only when absolutely required.

The lawyer also mentioned a secondary option where only one representative person would be registered and as soon as events develop in a positive manner, others can join in. Hence is why I assume the victims that have lesser at stake can join in later. This option will cost a minimum of EUR800,- . Although it will cost donation money, it reduces total cost by more than 75% and could potentially save everyone money since again, it's not sure the paid EUR80,- will have any effect.

Next to this, we would then avoid the bureaucratic mess when having to deal with the victims having to register and pay which I predict will take some time before the last victim is actually fully registered and has paid. As far as speed goes, this is the quickest way.

On top of this, in order to hire the lawyer for EUR80,- per victim, we'd have to be with 50 victims. At the moment we are with 23. This would mean that joining at the current moment would result in at least double the sum per person. I will ask the lawyer if using one representative can produce equal amount of pressure on the prosecutor than when having registered with a group.

So to me, we have 2 options.

1)Start a legal action with the people that have registered themselves to me. At the moment that would mean the EUR80 would probably double as we aren't near the 50 victims. (You can join by mailing "join legal action" to btc24.refund <at> gmail <dot> com )

2)Start a legal action with me as representative of the community. I'd be committing myself to this case the same way as I've been doing for the past 1+ year and try to be as transparent as possible.

Let me know by mail or forum what your thoughts are and I will make a decision based on those thoughts. In the meantime I will present the lawyer with my 3 questions.

In any case, I want to make a decision before Christmas so the lawyer can start his pressure campaign in the new year right away.

You can read the Q&A back at: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=455#p664

Any donation is welcome at wallet: 12eEc2AHzpdw37udZ95Qg3Av3ahwyii47T

It is also possible to transfer donations via Bankwire, if you are willing to donate via that route, please contact me personally for further details. Donations done through bankwire will also be posted anonymized on the forum for transparancy and verification purposes.

Regards,
Jeff

Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:34 pm

Re: [Mailing #39] Two options to proceed

Post by Admin »

I still believe that a second opinion should be sought from a different lawyer. I understand that the lawyer has been in touch with the Polish prosecutor but I think €800 to register one person (as the minimum fee) is very high and at the moment I am less inclined to invest €160 (if there's only 20 odd people so the €80 fee is to double) for what could be waiting for another 2 or 3 years.

Basically, what I'm saying is that I want to see a clear path of action or potential action that will recover my funds rather than spending €80/€160 now in the hope the Polish authorities bother to dust the case off and bring it to court. However I honestly think that it could be years rather than months so struggle to see what benefit it is to sign up with the lawyer at this moment in time (or at least before Christmas)

I know it's the holiday season but it's strange how most people have gone quiet now we've made some small progress!

Junny
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:24 am

Re: [Mailing #39] Two options to proceed

Post by Junny »

Paying 160€ would be a little less than the money that Simon owes me so I would drop out of any proceedings until a better case outlook. As such, I agree that 4K€ is way too much and we should get a second opinion.

btc24refund
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:58 pm

Re: [Mailing #39] Two options to proceed

Post by btc24refund »

Admin wrote:I still believe that a second opinion should be sought from a different lawyer. I understand that the lawyer has been in touch with the Polish prosecutor but I think €800 to register one person (as the minimum fee) is very high and at the moment I am less inclined to invest €160 (if there's only 20 odd people so the €80 fee is to double) for what could be waiting for another 2 or 3 years.

Basically, what I'm saying is that I want to see a clear path of action or potential action that will recover my funds rather than spending €80/€160 now in the hope the Polish authorities bother to dust the case off and bring it to court. However I honestly think that it could be years rather than months so struggle to see what benefit it is to sign up with the lawyer at this moment in time (or at least before Christmas)

I know it's the holiday season but it's strange how most people have gone quiet now we've made some small progress!
Now that we know for sure the money is still in confiscation and will probably stay there for a while, I am not against shopping arround at different lawyers just to get a second oppinion. Do you have any suggestions perhaps?

Broke
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:32 pm

Re: [Mailing #39] Two options to proceed

Post by Broke »

No, there is no suggestions. It would mean we have to go again for this whole matter. We got the lawyer, let's stick with him. I would support idea with Jeff going as our representative. Do it Jeff.

Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:34 pm

Re: [Mailing #39] Two options to proceed

Post by Admin »

No I have no suggestions at the moment and with the holiday season upon us I don't have the time to even look at other options until the new year, unfortunately.

It may well be that our current lawyer offers us the best, cheapest and easiest legal services to us but I would like a second opinion and quote to register ourselves as victims. Whilst it's fantastic we've made progress to this point and we now know for certain that the funds are still seized I personally think that with the amount of fiat and BTC involved it could be drive the cost of registering as victims up. I don't know what exactly registering as victims involves but if it's simply taking our name and address and sending it in to the court/prosecutor as a list of people then €4k is very expensive.

Either way it isn't my choice alone to make - I'd welcome other people's opinions on the matter. I cannot imagine the lawyer doing anything until the first week in January now (at least, probably) and I'd guess this case is very low on the priority scale of the lawyer, prosecutor and other Polish authorities.

I know there are people with tens of thousands of Euros seized and it would be good if they came forward and gave their thoughts on the matter too. Even the other stakeholders have gone very quiet....

Netional
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:01 pm

Re: [Mailing #39] Two options to proceed

Post by Netional »

Thanks for the clear 2 options.
>> I will ask the lawyer if using one representative can produce equal amount of pressure on the prosecutor than when having registered with a group.
Please let us know the answer to this question.

If this is indeed the case, I would prefer option 2.
If this is not the case, I'm seriously considering joining the group to pursue option 1.

Kyle
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Mailing #39] Two options to proceed

Post by Kyle »

Netional wrote:Thanks for the clear 2 options.
>> I will ask the lawyer if using one representative can produce equal amount of pressure on the prosecutor than when having registered with a group.
Please let us know the answer to this question.

If this is indeed the case, I would prefer option 2.
If this is not the case, I'm seriously considering joining the group to pursue option 1.
The number of people should not generally add more pressure: although there might be some internal prioritising of this case in case of a mob. However, adding a damaged party would eliminate the possibility of governmental misbehaviour. Hopefully. Option 2 sounds better, since minimising the losses for no guaranteed gain is highly preferable.

Breeze
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:55 pm

Re: [Mailing #39] Two options to proceed

Post by Breeze »

Me with my 2.393 BTC loss, don't know if its worth it =/
Good job Jeff

bernard75
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: [Mailing #39] Two options to proceed

Post by bernard75 »

800€ is preposterous!
He has to write a short letter to the prosecutor, thats all.
I have done it for free by sending an email to the prosecutor, so have many others.
Somebody is cashing in here big times.

wydzial.sledczy (at) prokuratura-gorzow.pl
Title: Sprawa VDs 27/13

Szanowny Panie Prokuratorze,
Zwracam się z wnioskiem o odblokowanie moich pozostałych środków od BTC24 LTD. Chodzi
o resztę, 28% stanowiących xxxxx.xx EUR. Wcześniej odzyskałem 72%
zablokowanych moich środków. Dokonywałem wcześniej wyjaśnienia
dotyczącego pochodzenia całości zgromadzonych środków według przepisach
AML i KYC.
Uprzejmie proszę o jak najszybsze załatwienie sprawy i odpowiedz.
Z wyrazami szacunku
Name Surname
Attachment: Proof of my claim in form of bank statement of the 72%.

@btc24scammer
Ask the lawyer if he can even gain access to the case files.
And if its possible to start any kind of action without this.

Here is also a lawyer that has tried to get access to the case file for free, found on the mentioned lawyer portals:
adwokatkaminski (at) op.pl

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