[Mailing #59] Small update from the lawyer

Discussing the ongoing legal proceedings and all things relating to Bitcoin-24
fod
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:22 pm

Re: [Mailing #59] Small update from the lawyer

Post by fod » Mon May 07, 2018 3:06 am

The amount of work that Jeff (and others) have put in over the years would not be justified by the amount of money they would make from scamming us. It just simply wouldn't make sense. Why would someone do this to make the equivalent of like $5 per hour? Plus, if they are actually successful in getting our money back, I'm sure many people will be sending him donations as thanks. So even if his only motivation is to make money, he still has the incentive to genuinely help us.

bernard75
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: [Mailing #59] Small update from the lawyer

Post by bernard75 » Mon May 07, 2018 4:52 am

What work? Posting here every couple of months? :lol:

Izi
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:57 pm

Re: [Mailing #59] Small update from the lawyer

Post by Izi » Mon May 07, 2018 6:35 am

bernard75 wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 4:52 am
What work? Posting here every couple of months? :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

You are correct.

Do you have any suggestion what to do or any new info?

user4164
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:14 pm

Re: [Mailing #59] Small update from the lawyer

Post by user4164 » Mon May 07, 2018 9:19 am

Let me step in. I had some exchange with Jeff and I understood that he is providing all this effort for free and that he has basically none (or very little) funds in Simon's custody. It's amazing that he puts so much effort to this (hosting the site, getting the lawyer in Poland, communicating with people around...) but on the other hand it's legit to question his motivation. People like me who have serious amount of BTC held by Simon might see the things differently. I've contacted my local lawyer and also Polish office contracted by the group from this forum few years back and here are some points:
- Fact that Simon is German citizen, BTC24 Ltd. being UK registered company but having basically all operations in Poland (including main bank accounts) makes the case extremely complicated (+ fact that there were no written contracts between BTC24 and users, just general vague terms of conditions, fact that most of the assets are cryptocurrency with questionable legal status in DE/UK/PL jurisdiction etc.)
- The main advice from Jeff and others here were to wait until all Simon's legal troubles are over, don't add fuel into the fire, just observe, wait and then all will be settled down.
- However the case in Germany was dismissed long time ago and in Poland just last November. This is more than 6 months ago.
- Jeff is saying that Simon haven't claimed his accounts in Polish banks yet and that should be the main trigger to start communicating with "victims" but I cannot imagine how we or anyone else then bank and Simon could know. If the bank account was opened by him in the past and legally is his or belong to legal entity he owns then he can do anything since last November without anyone knowing it.
- To make the situation worse BTC24 Ltd. was dissolved according to UK registers in January 2018! So whatever we had locked down in it wasn't claimed and reversing this step (e.g. through criminal prosecution of owners) is even more difficult.

So my conclusions are following:
- Putting all actions in the timeline starting with the closing of BTC24 exchange in 2013, not returning crypto and fiat to many "customers", trying to give back some parts of fiat through German lawyer (which went through in early 2014), then long silence with visibly only one action group of victims (= this forum under Jeff's lead) and finally dismissed cased in Poland in November 2017 and immediate termination of BTC Ltd. in UK indicates that this is the scam which tries to go out of business without returning crypto (and the rest of assets) to anyone. Unlike other similar cases (MtGox) "organizers" of BTC24 simply want to wait until all legal limitation periods are overdue and then live low profile wealthy life.
- If anyone disagree then please tell me your interpretation of this timeline and how you imagine the next steps in coming months (what I see is "Simon (and probably also Jeff or whoever was active in the case between 2013 and 2017) will do nothing and no one will ever find him or call responsible for BTC24 - unless some action happens right now, legal or "face to face confrontation").
- Things which shock me are mainly: where are the victims who lost 10-1000+ BTCs during the shut-down, which were already interesting value back then? Where they silently paid out by Simon one by one (when they threaten him)? This is very unlikely. Also how is it possible that BTC Ltd. was silently terminated in the UK and no UK based victim (or other citizen through UK based lawyer) objected? In normal world there would be either debts filed and termination should go through bankruptcy or there should be some criminal charges against owner/management for theft.

So if @bernard75 or other users already took some actions on their own (like consulting their lawyers since 2014!) please share your conclusions. In exchange I can share the photocopy of closing papers issued by Polish prosecutor (it's in Polish but probably worth translating - also this document was supposedly sent to Jeff in November 2017 but I haven't seen it anywhere). The chance to perform any legal action is lower and lower with every week but there might be still some options. Bu I'm afraid that staying under anonymous links on forums such as this one and just writing ironic hate-posts every few months isn't the way. Meeting in one place would help but that is already significant expense to make (and decide where and when to meet).

bernard75
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: [Mailing #59] Small update from the lawyer

Post by bernard75 » Mon May 07, 2018 11:23 am

I didnt have any BTC at that point with him, but when the cash could be claimed so could be BTCs.
You got it all right, but the bank account was opened in his name in the main branch of WBK in Szczecin in 2012, so he could claim the ~1m as soon as his warrant in Poland expired.
If the closing papers differ from mine and are not too long i could translate them, just PM me.
And as a meeting place i would suggest something online, since we are all from different continents.

bernard75
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: [Mailing #59] Small update from the lawyer

Post by bernard75 » Tue May 08, 2018 1:13 am

No response, which makes me believe you another puller.
I really cant believe that you get scammed by them.
Simon, i know you reading this and it would not end up good for and your folks.

user4164
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:14 pm

Re: [Mailing #59] Small update from the lawyer

Post by user4164 » Tue May 08, 2018 8:38 am

Damn Bernard you are really choleric guy;) One day without response and you rush to tell the forum? Calm down, people also have holidays, do some gardening chill...

bernard75
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: [Mailing #59] Small update from the lawyer

Post by bernard75 » Tue May 08, 2018 5:07 pm

Sorry about that, but the cryptoworld just makes one paranoid.

btc24refund
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:58 pm

Re: [Mailing #59] Small update from the lawyer

Post by btc24refund » Tue May 08, 2018 8:45 pm

bernard75 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 5:57 pm
Will the sheep get an update, or you settled with the fucking Lankwitzer.
Stop lying, i know where his parents live, where he used to live and where he is after Thailand.
I am also a Polak, that knows more then your "lawyer", through my lawyer, and i hope you stop shitting people.

BTW: Him selling the database, is the worst thing. Scheiss (kannste selber einfügen) BWLER.
Ah, back again after what was it.. 2.. 3 years?
Last time you mentioned you/your lawyer had some information and I called you out to share your information. The legal documents in particular.
This could've helped us further but alas the troll was very silent indeed. Instead you'd rather spread FUD.
Still the case right?

Don't think I forgot... ;)

btc24refund
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:58 pm

Re: [Mailing #59] Small update from the lawyer

Post by btc24refund » Tue May 08, 2018 8:54 pm

user4164 wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 9:19 am
Let me step in. I had some exchange with Jeff and I understood that he is providing all this effort for free and that he has basically none (or very little) funds in Simon's custody. It's amazing that he puts so much effort to this (hosting the site, getting the lawyer in Poland, communicating with people around...) but on the other hand it's legit to question his motivation. People like me who have serious amount of BTC held by Simon might see the things differently. I've contacted my local lawyer and also Polish office contracted by the group from this forum few years back and here are some points:
- Fact that Simon is German citizen, BTC24 Ltd. being UK registered company but having basically all operations in Poland (including main bank accounts) makes the case extremely complicated (+ fact that there were no written contracts between BTC24 and users, just general vague terms of conditions, fact that most of the assets are cryptocurrency with questionable legal status in DE/UK/PL jurisdiction etc.)
- The main advice from Jeff and others here were to wait until all Simon's legal troubles are over, don't add fuel into the fire, just observe, wait and then all will be settled down.
- However the case in Germany was dismissed long time ago and in Poland just last November. This is more than 6 months ago.
- Jeff is saying that Simon haven't claimed his accounts in Polish banks yet and that should be the main trigger to start communicating with "victims" but I cannot imagine how we or anyone else then bank and Simon could know. If the bank account was opened by him in the past and legally is his or belong to legal entity he owns then he can do anything since last November without anyone knowing it.
- To make the situation worse BTC24 Ltd. was dissolved according to UK registers in January 2018! So whatever we had locked down in it wasn't claimed and reversing this step (e.g. through criminal prosecution of owners) is even more difficult.

So my conclusions are following:
- Putting all actions in the timeline starting with the closing of BTC24 exchange in 2013, not returning crypto and fiat to many "customers", trying to give back some parts of fiat through German lawyer (which went through in early 2014), then long silence with visibly only one action group of victims (= this forum under Jeff's lead) and finally dismissed cased in Poland in November 2017 and immediate termination of BTC Ltd. in UK indicates that this is the scam which tries to go out of business without returning crypto (and the rest of assets) to anyone. Unlike other similar cases (MtGox) "organizers" of BTC24 simply want to wait until all legal limitation periods are overdue and then live low profile wealthy life.
- If anyone disagree then please tell me your interpretation of this timeline and how you imagine the next steps in coming months (what I see is "Simon (and probably also Jeff or whoever was active in the case between 2013 and 2017) will do nothing and no one will ever find him or call responsible for BTC24 - unless some action happens right now, legal or "face to face confrontation").
- Things which shock me are mainly: where are the victims who lost 10-1000+ BTCs during the shut-down, which were already interesting value back then? Where they silently paid out by Simon one by one (when they threaten him)? This is very unlikely. Also how is it possible that BTC Ltd. was silently terminated in the UK and no UK based victim (or other citizen through UK based lawyer) objected? In normal world there would be either debts filed and termination should go through bankruptcy or there should be some criminal charges against owner/management for theft.

So if @bernard75 or other users already took some actions on their own (like consulting their lawyers since 2014!) please share your conclusions. In exchange I can share the photocopy of closing papers issued by Polish prosecutor (it's in Polish but probably worth translating - also this document was supposedly sent to Jeff in November 2017 but I haven't seen it anywhere). The chance to perform any legal action is lower and lower with every week but there might be still some options. Bu I'm afraid that staying under anonymous links on forums such as this one and just writing ironic hate-posts every few months isn't the way. Meeting in one place would help but that is already significant expense to make (and decide where and when to meet).
Fair points. My understanding of the whole case is quite simple actually. And I can be brief about it as well; The confiscation is something Simon did not have any influence over. It's just something that landed on his doorstep. The reasons behind the confiscation were unsound and based on German accusations that were, since the investigation has ended, false.

Now is the moment he can show his true colors although, technically he has done nothing wrong just yet.
The moment the funds is released and he does not make an effort to repay; then it has become theft and we can (unfortunately) start a whole new series of lawyers preparing indictments and suing him. When we reach that point, the funds are officially stolen. Till that time I'm pushing our lawyer hard enough to get something moving in which we aren't officially a party in (See the latest mailing)

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