[Mailing #52] The statements have been given.

Discussing the ongoing legal proceedings and all things relating to Bitcoin-24
btc24refund
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:58 pm

[Mailing #52] The statements have been given.

Post by btc24refund » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:11 am

Dear BTC24-victims,

Today I was summoned at a local police station to answer a few questions which were sent by the Polish prosecutor. Finally after a period of months I was able to make a statement regarding this whole ordeal. As you might've read on the forum, I've been pushing at the "public prosecution service" and various departments of the police to finally get a hold of the request. With luck, last week I finally received a phone call for an appointment. Apparently they wanted to finish the case and after some good ol' pro-actively stalking they seized the opportunity and pulled the case up. Just leave it up to BTC Jeff to mail/call lawyers and prosecutors into insanity!

After arriving at the designated police station the interrogation started with a request to sign a contract. I was a bit surprised about this contract. In essence the contract, when signed, would grant me the status of damaged party. The contract would also give me rights and obligations when attaining that status. While at first this might seem to make sense, there is more to it. When signing this contract I would indirectly be giving the Polish prosecutor ammunition for his investigation; by claiming to be a damaged party the investigation would be more legitimate and might take longer or worse, might be misinterpreted and escalated to a court case since we ourselves would be the damaged party! [paradox alert]

It is true that I myself and everyone else misses money but strictly speaking the Polish prosecutor is hogging on it; not Simon. Therefor it absolutely makes no sense to join in and sue Simon -at this moment-. I'd also like to mention that initially the German authorities ordered the freeze at which Poland complied. Later on Simon was judged innocent and started with paying out 72%. Poland should've followed; but they did not. I got suspicious about this document and thus did not sign it. I added the statement that we are not looking to sue Simon but rather fix the error of the previous and current prosecutor. This should lead to the goal of the money being released.

It bothers me that the prosecutor is seemingly very keen on keeping his grasp on the money, by any means possible. One would almost think they aren't interested at all in ending this case. One interesting thing to think about; should the Polish prosecutor already have enough evidence why ask for additional statements and not go to court. I believe the prosecutor has diddly-squat and is trying everything to stall it. Nice try, but better luck next time.

Anyhow, after declining this contract I started telling the whole story from apr 2013 till our current situation. I aimed at conveying the red line in our shared trauma; our money being stuck in Poland. The police officer interrogating me remained neutral but I had the idea he was puzzled about the questions in relation to the real story. The statement I gave the police officer can be summerized as following: I represent a group of people who just want their money back and this is impossible at the moment due to an investigation based on false grounds.

After giving the statement and signing it, the police officer assured me that the statement would be sent asap to Poland. The whole interrogation took about 2 hours and I think it really portrays our situation nicely.

As a final thought, the single most important step is to get the money out of Poland.
After this Simon will have to distribute the money. If he lacks doing this, only then will he have broken the law by keeping our money illegitimately.
So ultimately we're with the uncomfortable situation of having our money stuck indefinitely by a incompetent prosecutor or having to trust a stranger to distribute more than a million euro's.

After all this trouble with the prosecutor, I think anything -but- that option is better to be honest.

As always, should there be developments; I'll let you know

Regards,
Jeff

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Broke
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:32 pm

Re: [Mailing #52] The statements have been given.

Post by Broke » Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:06 pm

Thank You Jeff. Can we sue the polish prosecutor instead and be a damaged party from that side?

user4164
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:14 pm

Re: [Mailing #52] The statements have been given.

Post by user4164 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:07 pm

Hi guys,

Sorry to appending it here (little off topic but I hope just little) but I guess this forum doesn't suffer from storm of new messages every day so I prefer to keep it in the most recent thread. I'm following the story since the beginning in 2013 and I'm little puzzled by one phenomenon: anyone speaking about damage or funds hold by Simon is using word "money", almost no mention of lost BTC and those messages who are asking for them are usually dying with one or zero responses in the dust of the internet. Now I understand that in the end all funds (USD/EUR/PLN/BTC) are convertible in one way or another but still I'd assume that most of the damages were caused in lost bitcoin funds (especially when the most of victims were returned with 72% of their EUR deposits roughly one year after the crash).

So now I have few theories and please let me know with your personal understanding/stand (or point me to the ultimate discussion where this was solved once forever but I don't see it here on the forum):
1) My lack of understanding (I'm obviously not native English speaker) because everybody uses word "money" for bitcoins as well and its clear that we all are desperately waiting for their return. I personally hope this is not true because I doubt that any law enforcement involved cares about BTC as "value" at all - namely that dumb Polish prosecutor - and also how this should then relate to frozen EUR/PLN account when Simon could refund BTC already?!
2) Most of the people (or at least those active here) had negligible BTC loses and they were really having mainly fiat deposits there. (I believe it's very unlikely.)
3) All people here understand that BTC are out of the game (e.g. because neither German nor Polish - or any EU - law gives them any legal status - which isn't true btw.), Simon has already run away with that or they got stolen by hackers. However many of that is probable I'm curious if we have together explored all the possibilities how to save (at least some important portion of) this Simon's debt to us.
4) First let's focus on fiat and getting BTC24 back to business, Simon will then open his databases/logs and BTCs will be released without problems (stupid approach but maybe there is someone who takes it).
5) ???

Thanks for your few minutes to answer my sub-question (+ thanks to Jeff and anyone else who spend his time and resources on this effort)
Jan

Broke
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:32 pm

Re: [Mailing #52] The statements have been given.

Post by Broke » Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:25 pm

Yes, I have the same feeling that BTC case was somehow abandoned while we were pushing more for fiat case. I personally owned some micro 0.2 BTC when exchange went down and I think I got them returned with 72% together. At the time when exchange went down Bitcoin was at it's bubble ($260) and most of us here got stuck by selling it in to fiat unable to withdraw. That's why I believe the majority here are fiat holders and care less about BTC gone - this group wants fiat back which sits tight in a polish prosecutor's pocket.

timoue
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:19 am

Re: [Mailing #52] The statements have been given.

Post by timoue » Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:37 pm

Hi Jan,

I guess I am one of those "more active" members you are talking about.
1) My lack of understanding (I'm obviously not native English speaker) because everybody uses word "money" for bitcoins as well and its clear that we all are desperately waiting for their return. I personally hope this is not true because I doubt that any law enforcement involved cares about BTC as "value" at all - namely that dumb Polish prosecutor - and also how this should then relate to frozen EUR/PLN account when Simon could refund BTC already?!
When I write about "money" I actually just mean fiat. The Polish prosecutor has frozen the fiat in the Polish bank account of BTC 24, but they have not frozen the BTC. Also I don't expect the prosecutor to have access to the BTC (if there are any left).
2) Most of the people (or at least those active here) had negligible BTC loses and they were really having mainly fiat deposits there. (I believe it's very unlikely.)
If my memory is correct, BTC24 allowed complete withdrawl of all BTC shortly after some charges were dropped in Germany. This was even before the payout of the 72 percent. I followed the comments in this and other forums. Most people seem to have withdrawn their BTC successfully. There were some complaints, mostly because the person withdrawing gave a faulty or wrong BTC address. I don't know how these stories ended though and whether someone (like Simon) took care of them. So actually, I believe that the number of outstanding BTC that BTC24 still holds is not that high.
3) All people here understand that BTC are out of the game (e.g. because neither German nor Polish - or any EU - law gives them any legal status - which isn't true btw.), Simon has already run away with that or they got stolen by hackers. However many of that is probable I'm curious if we have together explored all the possibilities how to save (at least some important portion of) this Simon's debt to us.
I have met Simon in person recently. My impression is that he is an honest guy and he is seriously trying to get everyone their money back (as for BTC, I believe that most of those have already been returned, see above). As far as I know, nothing was hacked or stolen, only some faulty trades have been reverted. If BTC24 still holds a substantial amount of your BTC, I think the most sensible approach would be to send Simon an email and ask him whether you can have them back. Though I suppose that he will not reply because there are still ongoing legal issues and he has been silenced by his lawyer (which is probably very smart of him).
4) First let's focus on fiat and getting BTC24 back to business, Simon will then open his databases/logs and BTCs will be released without problems (stupid approach but maybe there is someone who takes it).
5) ???
Personally, I expect that we will see the fiat (the 28 percent) but this may take some more time, maybe years. The key is to get the Polish prosecutor to drop the charges against Simon. If that happens, BTC24 will regain access to the frozen funds and be able to refund everyone. I do not expect BTC24 to get back up and running (though I would be delighted if it did; it was actually a really good platform). After all the legal issues are settled, Simon can also make public statements again and he may address any outstanding BTC balances and how those will be handled.

user4164
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:14 pm

Re: [Mailing #52] The statements have been given.

Post by user4164 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:07 pm

Hi again,

thanks for your feedback. It seems that you were really luckier so the BTC funds remaining at the time of collapse were almost zero. I'd like to say that I was cooperating in all steps done by BTC24/Simon as well as their lawyers after April 2013 and I'm pretty sure that BTC withdrawal was never working for me neither for other people I know. So any details about what and when I missed could be helpful.

I assume that contacting Simon at this stage is almost zero probability shot, however if anyone has any contact or other suggestions I'm very opened (DM me or post it here). My BTC funds weren't large but still I hate people who steal something and think they can walk away just like that. Not saying it's necessarily Simon but I definitely won't drop this and any time I'll have travel to Berlin I'll take some free time to look for him (any suggestions beside these already posted on the forum?;)

Cheers Jan

timoue
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:19 am

Re: [Mailing #52] The statements have been given.

Post by timoue » Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:52 am

I am sorry if you did not get your BTC. I never withdrew any BTC, so I was not facing these issues if there were any.

I believe sending Simon an email is actually quite a good option. He may not respond now, but maybe later, who knows. From what I learned, being polite and clear about what it is you want is most likely to produce favorable results.

Regarding your proposal to visit Simon: please be aware that there were some issues in the past where people threatened Simon via the internet and maybe also in person. This forum is meant to help recover our outstanding assets (fiat, but also BTC if we can) in a legal and civilized manner. We do not endorse (and will not be part of) any plans to make surprise-visits to Simon. We need to make it clear that we are not "against" and we are no threat to him. I kindly ask you to consider this in future posts.

user4164
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:14 pm

Re: [Mailing #52] The statements have been given.

Post by user4164 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:49 pm

I was definitely not trying to threaten or scare any one (and I guess Simon is pretty immune in the sense as he survived 3 years without having much regrets about what happened to BTC funds, running other businesses instead;). I've understood that he is basically hiding so anything else then surprise visit isn't in question. If you could please send me his email address by direct message (or point me where this is laying publicly on this forum) I'd be very grateful, I just want my few BTCs back and I fully support his fight with incompetent Polish law enforcement (and EU in general).

Cheers Jan

timoue
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:19 am

Re: [Mailing #52] The statements have been given.

Post by timoue » Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:10 pm

Sounds a bit silly, but if you google his full name, you end up with a number of useful links. I guess you could start there.

btc24refund
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:58 pm

Re: [Mailing #52] The statements have been given.

Post by btc24refund » Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:43 pm

Broke wrote:Thank You Jeff. Can we sue the polish prosecutor instead and be a damaged party from that side?
I'm afraid that might not be fruitful. The prosecutor is hiding behind his "investigation". Though on the other hand, this is currently the second prosecutor picking up this case and he hasn't done a very terrific job. If we were to sue him, it would have to come from Simon in any case.

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