[Mailing 48] Decision needed, respond ASAP please

Discussing the ongoing legal proceedings and all things relating to Bitcoin-24
btc24refund
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:58 pm

[Mailing 48] Decision needed, respond ASAP please

Post by btc24refund »

Dear BTC-24 victims,

As you know we've made some great progress recently. We've managed to influence (or “intimidate” if you like) the prosecutor to speed up the investigation of BTC24 which has been on-going for more than 2 years now. This speed-up has been the invaluable goal we have achieved thanks to the many people that joined in with the motion. Again, thank you for your efforts!

At this moment we have to make a decision on how to proceed. I have compiled a summary of the situation below, as well as the options that have been proposed by our lawyer.


Situation:

The funds are confiscated by the Polish authorities. This confiscation is due to an ongoing investigation by the Polish authorities against BTC-24 for money laundering. The investigation has been ongoing for more than 2 years.

There are two possible outcomes of this investigation:
1. Dismissal: the prosecutor may drop the charges against BTC-24, e.g., if there is insufficient evidence of money laundering. In this case, the funds would be released to BTC-24.
2. Indictment: if the prosecutor has found evidence of some crime, the case will be handed to the court. Then BTC-24 will be tried before a Polish court. The funds will remain confiscated during the trial.

It appears from the communication of our lawyer with the prosecutor that the investigation has not been moving at all during all this time. With the filing of 50+ motions, the prosecutor got scared of having to work through all of them. He claimed that the investigation was just about to be finished when the motions came in. He asked our lawyer to have us retract the motions so that the investigation can find a speedy conclusion.

Our lawyer has been contacted by the Polish prosecutor via an official statement yesterday. The precise question of the prosecutor is “how we (the 50+ people who filed motions) have been harmed and what we know about the case.” The lawyer thinks these questions are likely asked to try and deny us status as victim and to find out if there are any valuable witnesses.


Legal position:

We are not subjects of the crime of money laundering. This has a number of implications: first, our role as victims in the case is rather questionable. Even if the case goes to court AND BTC-24 is found guilty of money laundering, this does not mean that we will be paid back our money by the Polish authorities.

Strictly speaking, we may be victims of fraud committed by BTC-24. Whether or not this is the case depends on the “service agreement” that we had with BTC-24. Consequently, if we were to try and get our funds back though the legal system, we would have to sue BTC-24 for “fraud”, most likely in Germany or the UK.


Our Strategy:

There are essentially two ways to get our money back: first, Simon could get the funds back under his control and subsequently pay the victims. Second, we could win a trial against Simon/BTC-24 for fraud and he would be sentenced to pay us back. As argued above, getting the money as victims in the Polish case is not really an option.

I suppose that we all agree that the first option would be the simplest, fastest, and best for all of us, even Simon. Given this, our chances of getting our money back are highest if a) the investigation in Poland ends in a dismissal, b) Simon regains control of the funds, and c) Simon pays the outstanding debt. At least for those victims who were already identified to get their 72%, this should be fairly easy to implement for Simon, but hopefully he will also find a way to pay the other outstanding claims.


Contact with Simon:

Obviously, the first option of obtaining the funds through Simon relies on Simon’s cooperation. After all, he will have to pay everyone once he has regained control over the money. He has stated numerous times in the past that it is not his aim to take the money and run, but there has been radio silence from him for over a year now. I have been trying to get in contact with Simon personally as well as through the prosecutor. Unfortunately this has not yielded any success. I am still interested in finding out Simon's motives and perhaps come to an agreement how to resolve this mess. It would make things much easier if he stepped forward and communicated with us (any thoughts, Simon?!)

It appears that the best way to get our money back is to harness the current momentum with the prosecutor and achieve a speedy release of the funds (assuming that the charges are dismissed). We can then hope to get the money back from Simon in an orderly fashion. If he does not cooperate, we will still have the option of suing him for fraud. I have already sought informal legal counsel in the UK just to assess our options and be prepared for this route should it be needed.


Immediate next steps:

On the operations side, we need to make a decision on how to respond to the request from the prosecutor. We have two options:
Option 1: Keep all motions open.
Option 2: Tentatively retract all motions, except one or two.

Consequences of Option 1: Everyone who filed a motion will have to testify. As you have read in the last mailing, this might extend the investigation (up to two years, according to the prosecutor). Thus, the investigation will remain open for two years, and the funds will remain confiscated during this time. When the investigation is closed, a decision will be made to dismiss the case or to hand it to court. This is of course assuming that the prosecutor acknowledges us as victims. If he denies our status we are all without status in this investigation. On top of this, the prosecutor demands that a few complex are to be answered before next Monday in order to be considered for a possible acknowledgement(!). The prosecutor is trying everything to close the investigation.

Consequences of Option 2: The prosecutor fears the amount of work to collect the testimony of 50+ people. Therefore, we may be able to “negotiate” with him to keep only one or two of our group in the process, who can serve as an informal informer to the remainder of the group. This informal informer will keep us updated about the outcome of the investigation. Thus, we will know what is happening, and in particular if and when the funds are released. In essence this will mean that only one or two motions will remain intact but this will allow the lawyer to inform us all when the investigation finishes. If the case goes to court, we still have the option of re-opening the tentatively retracted motions.

We should reach a conclusion on which option to pursue soon, so I kindly ask you to reply soon, ideally within the next 24 hours, as our lawyer has to respond to the request from the prosecutor. My personal opinion is in favor of option 2. If we decide on option 2, we need to select one or two people to represent the group. Because the prosecutor has put an near impossible deadline I would like to appoint myself and Timou from the forum as informal informer. Timou has been, along with admin Aaron, very helpful in the lawyer process and will function as independent party overseeing the events. If anyone objects to this decision, please state this on the board forum.

FOR ALL WHO FILED A MOTION: Please indicate by Thursday, June 18, 2015, whether you endorse option 2, the tentative retraction of all but one or two motions in order to achieve the release of the funds. I will personally mail all victims who filed a motion and add the lawyer's address in order to make the response as easy as possible.

Thank you for your time,

Regards,
Jeff

timoue
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:19 am

Re: [Mailing 48] Decision needed, respond ASAP please

Post by timoue »

Thank you for pushing this forward, Jeff.

Even though we cannot be sure at this moment that Simon will pay us back, I believe that this is by far our best bet. So we should work towards a quick release of the funds. I am very much in favor of option 2! I am also willing to serve as one of the informers and keep the group up to date.

klingstorm
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:56 pm

Re: [Mailing 48] Decision needed, respond ASAP please

Post by klingstorm »

Option 2

Broke
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:32 pm

Re: [Mailing 48] Decision needed, respond ASAP please

Post by Broke »

Yea, go Jeff, option 2 seems alright. Especially if we'll have an option to proceed at some point later in court with all motions.

Let's see what our prosecutor going to say this time. I guess nobody wants to wait another year or two.

Although Simon's personal disappearance case needs to be taken with magnifying glass.

btc24refund
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:58 pm

Re: [Mailing 48] Decision needed, respond ASAP please

Post by btc24refund »

Broke wrote:Especially if we'll have an option to proceed at some point later in court with all motions.
With the knowledge we have now, we will most likely not have any relevant status should the money laundering indictment be handled in court. The only thing we can do, and have done successfully, is getting our case off the prosecutor's shelve. If it comes to future legal steps, it will be yet another one started by us.

hitchhiker
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:36 pm

Re: [Mailing 48] Decision needed, respond ASAP please

Post by hitchhiker »

option 2 - definitely

Izi
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:57 pm

Re: [Mailing 48] Decision needed, respond ASAP please

Post by Izi »

Hopefully the prosecutor will really speed up the process now that he knows we are closely watching him.

Jeff, you mentioned that Simon has a new lawyer. Do you have his contact or maybe our lawyer is able to get it? Maybe we could contact Simon via his lawyer or at least get some reassurance about Simon's intentions?
Broke wrote:Yea, go Jeff, option 2 seems alright. Especially if we'll have an option to proceed at some point later in court with all motions.

Let's see what our prosecutor going to say this time. I guess nobody wants to wait another year or two.

Although Simon's personal disappearance case needs to be taken with magnifying glass.
He will come out of hiding if not sooner, when we'll start a court case in UK or Germany in case that he doesn't return money. I don't think he want to have legal/jail issues for the rest of his life.

btc24refund
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:58 pm

Re: [Mailing 48] Decision needed, respond ASAP please

Post by btc24refund »

Izi wrote:Hopefully the prosecutor will really speed up the process now that he knows we are closely watching him.

Jeff, you mentioned that Simon has a new lawyer. Do you have his contact or maybe our lawyer is able to get it? Maybe we could contact Simon via his lawyer or at least get some reassurance about Simon's intentions?
Broke wrote:Yea, go Jeff, option 2 seems alright. Especially if we'll have an option to proceed at some point later in court with all motions.

Let's see what our prosecutor going to say this time. I guess nobody wants to wait another year or two.

Although Simon's personal disappearance case needs to be taken with magnifying glass.
He will come out of hiding if not sooner, when we'll start a court case in UK or Germany in case that he doesn't return money. I don't think he want to have legal/jail issues for the rest of his life.
It's my belief that the prosecutor really wants to lose this "hot potato" before it explodes in his face. The fact that he is very reluctant in taking interviews, setting up a deadline nearly impossible to fulfill and trying everything possible to end his investigation support this. I do not think he wants to take the risk and start slacking again after the motions have been put retracted.

I've tried to contact Simon's lawyer through the prosecutor but this hasn't been succesful yet. Efforts will be continued to be done to get in touch with Simon. Meanwhile, if other victims also, somehow can get a communication line established, please do share this.

bernard75
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: [Mailing 48] Decision needed, respond ASAP please

Post by bernard75 »

again a lot of blabla
btc24refund wrote: There are two possible outcomes of this investigation:
1. Dismissal: the prosecutor may drop the charges against BTC-24, e.g., if there is insufficient evidence of money laundering. In this case, the funds would be released to BTC-24.
2. Indictment: if the prosecutor has found evidence of some crime, the case will be handed to the court. Then BTC-24 will be tried before a Polish court. The funds will remain confiscated during the trial.
Nope, only option 2 is and always was viable.
btc24refund wrote: Our lawyer has been contacted by the Polish prosecutor via an official statement yesterday. The precise question of the prosecutor is “how we (the 50+ people who filed motions) have been harmed and what we know about the case.” The lawyer thinks these questions are likely asked to try and deny us status as victim and to find out if there are any valuable witnesses.
The lawyer is even better than you in bullshitting people.
Nobody of the 50+ has a claim, its entirely up to Simon, who withdrew from the "nagotiations" over a year ago.
btc24refund wrote: We are not subjects of the crime of money laundering. This has a number of implications: first, our role as victims in the case is rather questionable. Even if the case goes to court AND BTC-24 is found guilty of money laundering, this does not mean that we will be paid back our money by the Polish authorities.
And again, it means exactly that. BTC-24 is the accused and there is no way you get your 200$ back, unless Simon gets his act together and at least pays the "honest" customers, wht he owns them.
Which btw is very unlikly because he has left the country in fear of being the "kingpin".
btc24refund wrote: Strictly speaking, we may be victims of fraud committed by BTC-24. Whether or not this is the case depends on the “service agreement” that we had with BTC-24. Consequently, if we were to try and get our funds back though the legal system, we would have to sue BTC-24 for “fraud”, most likely in Germany or the UK.

Which “service agreement”?!?
btc24refund wrote: There are essentially two ways to get our money back: first, Simon could get the funds back under his control and subsequently pay the victims. Second, we could win a trial against Simon/BTC-24 for fraud and he would be sentenced to pay us back. As argued above, getting the money as victims in the Polish case is not really an option.
As already said Simon will not do anything, and getting money back form a Ltd, as a lawyer id say its possible. ;)
btc24refund wrote: I suppose that we all agree that the first option would be the simplest, fastest, and best for all of us, even Simon. Given this, our chances of getting our money back are highest if a) the investigation in Poland ends in a dismissal, b) Simon regains control of the funds, and c) Simon pays the outstanding debt. At least for those victims who were already identified to get their 72%, this should be fairly easy to implement for Simon, but hopefully he will also find a way to pay the other outstanding claims.
a+b+c=correct answer. I had that same dream 2 years ago...
btc24refund wrote: I have already sought informal legal counsel in the UK just to assess our options and be prepared for this route should it be needed.
Oh, you have. Please share!
btc24refund wrote: Consequences of Option 1: Everyone who filed a motion will have to testify. As you have read in the last mailing, this might extend the investigation (up to two years, according to the prosecutor). Thus, the investigation will remain open for two years, and the funds will remain confiscated during this time. When the investigation is closed, a decision will be made to dismiss the case or to hand it to court. This is of course assuming that the prosecutor acknowledges us as victims. If he denies our status we are all without status in this investigation. On top of this, the prosecutor demands that a few complex are to be answered before next Monday in order to be considered for a possible acknowledgement(!). The prosecutor is trying everything to close the investigation.
TESTIFY, in that case is simply sending normal KYC and AML documents over.
btc24refund wrote: Consequences of Option 2: The prosecutor fears the amount of work to collect the testimony of 50+ people. Therefore, we may be able to “negotiate” with him to keep only one or two of our group in the process, who can serve as an informal informer to the remainder of the group. This informal informer will keep us updated about the outcome of the investigation. Thus, we will know what is happening, and in particular if and when the funds are released. In essence this will mean that only one or two motions will remain intact but this will allow the lawyer to inform us all when the investigation finishes. If the case goes to court, we still have the option of re-opening the tentatively retracted motions.
I would expect those 2 to be those with the highest stake....
btc24refund wrote: FOR ALL WHO FILED A MOTION: Please indicate by Thursday, June 18, 2015, whether you endorse option 2, the tentative retraction of all but one or two motions in order to achieve the release of the funds. I will personally mail all victims who filed a motion and add the lawyer's address in order to make the response as easy as possible.
Whats the rush? It will take another 2 years according to your lawyer anyway.

And just to make it clear, im in no way trying to torpedo all of this writing and even more the simple effort, just pointing out the obvious facts.

BTW: since btc24 miraculously forgot to attach it: Donate, donate, donate here: 12eEc2AHzpdw37udZ95Qg3Av3ahwyii47T

Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:34 pm

Re: [Mailing 48] Decision needed, respond ASAP please

Post by Admin »

So Bernard75, what do you think is the best course of action? You were in contact with a lawyer in Poland some time ago, have you made any progress on getting your funds back?

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